Bringing her back online
 

Well, dropped off the Vette this weekend with ls1z28. He poked around yesterday and whatever the ticking sound is, it's nothing accessible with the engine in the car. He doesn't think it's cam bearings, mostly because oil pressure never drops out of spec and he says when the LS gets sloppy tolerances they tend to lose quite a bit of pressure. He'll still check of course, but his guess is maybe wrist-pin. In any event, we'll find out. Engine comes out and apart this week.

While it's out "probably" drop in some new lifters (Rhoads variable duration is a top candiate since it is fundamentally a street car) and reseal anything even vaguely tired looking. I DON'T think I'll lower compression with a thicker HG because I'm expecting some of my 91 octane summer knocking is because of the rather high backpressure I have, which will go away with headers and hi-flow cats.

If it turns out to be something more ominous or potentially catastrophic, not sure what I'll do. Not a fan of throwing money at losers.

Morel lifters are hands down the best lifters for the money. I have run them in every motor and they are very popular with the LS crowd as well. SO much so its the only lifter Ed Curtis recommends.

Every instance of cam knock I have seen has shown adequate oil pressure as well, I'm not sure the exact cause of it, and not sure anyone has really determined why they do this, but wrist pins would make a whole hell of a lot more noise than what I heard.

We'll have a definitive answer on the sound here in a couple days.

Do the Morel's move enough oil at lower RPMs? It's a street car, bulk of run time will be between 2-3k rpm, or even lower.

Yes, absolutely. They are a short travel snap ring retained tool steel lifter. Even solid roller lifters are fine for low rpm street use.

Here ya go
http://www.flowtechinduction.com/mor...raulic-roller/

Oh that's reasonably priced. I thought they were going to be like $800 or something. Do I need to get a new set of lengthened push rods too?

They are usually the same length as the stock units, however as with any valvetrain piece, the pushrods will need to be checked after they are installed. There's a good chance your old ones will work, however with the added strength and oil pressure of any link bar lifter a single piece formed end pushrod is ideal. Mahle, comp and trick flow make great ones that are under $200 a set.

Well, apparently my clutch was down to the rivets. So there's one thing.

Ride that clutch grandma

No. Maybe it was never fully releasing! BHP and this clutch are about matched, and with something like 70 strip launches, that probably didn't help. So those occasions when the clutch was fully engaged and I felt like it was maybe slipping just a lil . . it probably was. Probably have to go up to a moderate twin disc. I don't want anything so aggressive.

Its my job to fuck with you. I know all too well the issues with the hydraulic t56 setup. Which is why I will always prefer a cable.

What power are you putting down now? And what block are you using? I've been AWOL from the forum for a while so I'm a bit behind. I did an LS9 clutch in my V last year. You have to get a Katech flywheel because the LS9 has a unique crankshaft bolt pattern. Its actually more expensive than the clutch, but if you can find one used, like I did, you can have a clutch capable of 700-800whp that feels like an OEM LS1 clutch.

Ls7 clutch should hold fine,be cheap, and drive easy. Look forward to seeing this car in action.

Thanks for the clutch refs, I'll look into them. I want OEM feel whenever I can get it. Te McLeodd was fine, just burnt up . . .

Right now it puts down 390WHP. With a few planned engine and exhaust mods, just things like lifters, valves, rockers and exhaust and retune, probably/maybe somewhere around 430~WHP. And that'll be fine. If I keep it, which is where I'm at at the moment, and do the remaining suspension, brakes, wheels and tires mods I've thought about, I'll be under 3,000lbs full wet and 430~ to the wheels NA. That's plenty for a street car. :)

I thought you were making more power. With under 500 to the wheels I'd stick with an LS7 all day. As far as master cylinder, you might want to consider an upgrade. No stock GM clutch master cylinders seem to be worth a damn.

It's just a H&C 346. The heads are aggressively moded, but the cam is the common max smoggable cam, 114LSA, 224/224,0.566 lift The exhuast is stock, so very restrictive out of the block.

I use a GM Truck MC because it has almost the right bore and stroke and mates to the firewall of the C3 without any mods. No other MC does.

Oh. Main bearings were on their way out too, so it's good we pulled and tore down before something more catastrophic happened. I'll be talking to ls1z28 this afternoon and forming a game plan. I'm keeping a cap on the "while I'm at it" but also want be smart about the "while the engine is out and apart".

Ls7 clutch might "hold" but I know several people that complain about it not disengaging either. I believe R1 is coming out with a line of performance clutches based off OE specs.

Well, we were within shouting distance of a total failure.

The sound was coming from rod #6, the bearing was almost toast, but fortunately hadn't spun; it was the slop. There was a lot of metal in the pan that had gone through the motor. Not good, but could have been much worse.

Soooo, ls1z28 recommends a thorough rebuild or an altogether new motor to be reliable.

clean
bore/hone
resurface
check for straightness
balance
new pistons
lifters
push rods if necessary

Cam shows wear and needs to be reground or at least re-polished if not replaced.


Oh the McLeod branded clutch, was just a re branded Valeo. The FW is toast, has hot spots all over.

So I'm looking at a rebuild and new clutch setup.


Mmmm. Anybody have any idea on shops that have experience with LS1s (aluminum blocks) and are reasonably priced?

Called Troy at FPS. That's the one I know and is close to me. They are mostly known for higher performance Ford engine setups, but I asked if his shop has experience with LS and and he said yes. Prices seem good to me. If I bring the block disassembled, it starts at $350 for basic block work, crank turn $150, balance $125 for labor. Parts are nomial, so even with a bunch of options and extras like the morel lifters, probably still under $1,500. That doesn't seem too bad.

LUk (a German firm and GM OE) makes a Gold Pro Series. Lingenfelter used to sell these at around $700~, supposedly good for 700 ft/lbs. Rock Auto has them for $350~, that includes the FW, etc. Far as I can tell this would be an LS7 or LS7+ setup.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/more...798&cc=1361450

RA also has an Exedy setup for $450, but I can't find any reason it's better than the Luk except maybe in the disc material/design. But not clear specs.

I'm going to get a clutch before going to the machine shop since may was well get it balanced while it's apart. It's only $125 and may make a nice difference for overall smoothness on longevity.

I wouldn't balance it with the clutch. Best to do the engine parts themselves and if the clutch needs work to do that separately.

As far as machine shops Rod Phillips is great, but afaik he doesn't do assembly, just the machine work. Nate would probably be your best bet to find a good LS dude.

I meant FW, but is the answer the same?

ls1z28 will do disassembly and can do the assembly, so that's not a big deal. Unless someone comes up with a "these guys are the best and reasonably priced" probably just go with Troy at FPS since the prices seem fine and the location is convenient.

I have an LS2 and a L76 rotating assembly right now. All stock crank, rods and pistons in the rotating assembly... If the damage turns out to be more severe let me know. I'll get you a good price on it if you need. They are just sitting here.

Yes, have the crank spun, and flywheel spun separately. I think Rod charged me, to deck the block, sleeve, hone, and balance for a total of like $450. Hes been doing it for 50 years so I'm sure that has alot to do with it.

Since the engine has to come apart, I'll at least drop in some new lifters. Since the heads are coming off, I'll at least drop in new (LS7) valves and *maybe* a new set of rockers.

What heads do you have? LS7 intake valves are 2.20 inches. They probably won't fit in the heads you have unless you have the valve seats machined. If you do rockers, keep your old ones and do the trunnion upgrade. That will extend the life of them considerably. The LS7 lifters are decent. I'd look into a set of slow leakdown lifters as they are less noisy as far as I've read and been told when emailing Brian tooley racing. If you have cathedral port heads on the car right now, you might want to look into trick flow 220 as cast heads with ferrea valves. That setup is highly recommended from many experts I've talked to about my builds. You may want to consider sending the heads to west coast cylinder heads. They do pretty good work.

These are the 4.8L truck heads, already heavily decked and ported by the time I got them, but I'm not sure what was done to them otherwise. It was a common Heads option in the late 90s for the LS1. I'll have the shop take a look and see what they think. I just happen to have a set of LS7 valves around here somewhere. If they're better than what's in and they can work without a ton of extra machining work, then I'll use them, if not, pan it.

I was going to go with Morel Link-Bar lifters per Guy's recommendation. They seem very well regarded and cheap enough at $400~ for a set. I'm not trying to sping up past 7k, I would however like to get to 6,200~ as quickly as possible.

Thanks for the guidance on the rockers.

The morels are some of the best lifters around. If you don't mind the extra expense over the ls7 lifters, I'd jump on them. The 799 truck heads are good basically the same as 243s on an ls6. If they have already been milled down, that might be where some of your knock issue is coming from. I might have access to a set of stock 243s or 799s. I'll ask my buddy that I work with flipping cars and motors with. He has a bunch of different heads. The ls7 valve are likely too big to be stuffed into those heads with a smaller bore motor. That's also the reason the LS7 head has a different valve angle than any other LS head... To fit the valves. If you do send the heads out, have the shop see how big the chambers are. If they have been milled significantly, I would say that is your likely culprit in your knock issue. I think in my thread you were saying you were having issues with that.

Are you running a 5.3/4.8 truck block? Or a LS1?

Just as a comparison.... Ls7 valves are 2.20, LS3 types are 2.165 and cathedral ports are 2.00. Doesn't seem like a lot, but it's part of the reason that rectangular port heads can't be used on a smaller than 4.00 bore block.

Just as a reference... GM makes a mini ls3 style head for a "small bore" LS1/6 block... It still uses the 2.00 valves

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...1&pgGrp=catNav

It's a 2000 LS1 block with a mod to make it like an LS6 block for oiling, though I forget exactly what that was.

They are DEFINITELY milled & ported 4.8L heads. Static comp is high for sure, *supposedly* 11.1:1 but who knows. I'll have the shop look at them and the block and calcuate what it is with the stock MLS gasket I was running. Might be surprised!

On 91 in the summer it knocks for sure, and ls1z28 said it was probably some detonation that started hammering on the rod bearings. As long as I run Torco, just a little even, it doesn't knock. I wasn't going to run a thicker gasket because I thought a better exhaust eliminating backpressure might fix the problem.

Well 243/799 heads have pretty good compression without being milled. I wonder why they would do that unless they built the motor for E85 or race gas. Especially in California with our horrifically poor cat piss 91 octane.

LS1 heads are 10.1:1 stock 68cc chambers
LS6 heads are 10.5:1 stock 60cc chambers

Hopefully they didn't mill them too much. If they didn't, you might be able to rectify the situation with a thicker gasket.

If a bore requires new pistons, and the static comp is really high and I can't use a thicker gasket, maybe I could use dished pistons? Or is that just silly on an NA?

Gotta see what the head chambers are at first. It may or maynot be the issue. 11:1 isn't high enough to cause knock. You may have a tuning issue. But if they milled them down too far, then yea, I'd maybe run a dished piston. But at that point, you'd have to think about what kind of money is going into that vs getting new heads that haven't been milled to death.

Nothing wrong with running a dished piston on an n/a motor.

Have the heads cc'ed before purchasing pistons or head gaskets.

Don't run the LS7 exhaust valve unless you want to do this again from scratch.

Well, #3 hat a broken ring and it gouged the wall pretty good. The shop will check, but the bock man not be rebuildable since there is so little to work with on an LS1. #1 had a little coolant in it, so not sure where that came from. Booh. Dropped off the block and heads today. Will have an answer by the end of the week.

Won't bother with the LS7 valves. Not sure what's in them, but they look pretty big already.


Question is if the block is not rebuildable and one of the heads is shot, WTF do I do then. . .

That sucks. But I do have access to a LS2 block for you $700 and I'll drop it off. Or I can get you a whole 5.3 to drop in there.

Thanks for the heads up.

Do you mean bare block for the LS2 or does it have the rotating assembly? Also, off hand, what's the interchange between the LS1 and 2 for things like heads, intake, accessories. IOW, how much of what I have could be used?

Forgot to mention, cam is toast. ls1z28 said the springs were probably way too strong for it, kind of obviously worn, and one of the lobes is chewed up.

Holy fuck, I though Ron and I were the only ones who fucked shit up in odd style.

I really hate to say it, but the hotrod kit from GM with the LS3 is probably your best bet.

Unless you know something I don't, those are more or less $8k when you're done. On the upside it'd be brand new and about as "bullet proof" as it's going to get for the same or even more power.

As much as or more than the scratch for the motor, I shudder at the idea of integrating it with my LS1 ECU and programming.