[BRIAN]

Originally Posted by big2bird

Okay. Let's begin with "Changing tranny fluid too soon will accelerate wear."

Alrighty, as you may or may not know oils come present with specially formulated additives for whatever application. In this case an auto transmission. Automotive manufactures know this and know that there transmissions require this grade of oil with these certain additives to fulfill there service intervals, whether they be 30K or 100K. If your transmission service is due every 30K in "normal driving conditions" then "flushing" your tranny at say half of that 15K, can actually cause more wear on the components, mainly clutches.


WHY???? How can changing my fluid much sooner possibly affect my trans even more??? ADDITIVES

Oil additives are activated by heat and pressure. Due to additives having to hold up over time take certain time periods to actually become active at protecting your transmission. They take time to bond to the wear metals.

Back to work, i'll answer your questions tonight Ben and add some more to this also.

Continued 6:01 PM : So to help make this clear. The first couple thousand miles on new oil is where about 90% (give or take) of wear occurs. As the miles rack up additives become more and more present doing what they are formulated to due, protect your transmission. This also goes for motors and diffs with some different exceptions of course. So now you can see why changing your oil too soon can lead to "accelerated wear." It's the repeated early service of the trans that puts the the oil in the "activation period" or "break in period" over and over again increasing wear. Failing to follow the guidelines of the manufacture.

Keep in mind about all this, these are pretty much today's current oils not late 80's or early 90's oils. Oils have come along way and new advancements have been made hence these absurd 100k service intervals and 10K motor oil services. At the end of the day though each shift is one less shift for the tranny regardless, it's still man made don't try to go 200K on the poor things.

I won't be surprised if any of you didn't follow what I'm saying in previous posts like knowing oils had a "break in period" so if I get reply's about that's bull shit this and that, it's okay. You don't have to follow what I'm saying, choose to believe what you want. I'm here because I enjoy checking out your bitchin cars.

Want to learn more than you could ever imagine check these out.
http://www.sae.org/
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

Want to do your own studies try them out.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

[BRIAN]

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

Like what?

MANY many many things that make my head hurt from thinking about it all and how they effect each other. This is for motor which I know more about than auto transmissions by the way. A motor with synthetic oil will have an easier time turning over, so that means your starter needs less power to get you going. The starter needs less power so now that's less power taken from the battery. The battery was discharged less, now the alternator won't take as much hp from your motor to recharge. You see were I'm going with this. This in effect will make all these components last longer. Oh and since the alternator didn't work too hard that means better MPG

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

What do you mean honey like other than measured viscosity.

Yeah.......honey like. Thickening of the oil after shut down. Both oils run at about 10cst during opt temp. The next morning after shut down will be a different story. The mineral oil will thicken to say 75cst while a synthetic will only thicken to 50 cst (fictional numbers guys). Is that clear? Stuff can sometimes be the opposite of common thinking.

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

I can imagine this is possible but do you know why?

Simply because synthetic oil is a better "coolant" for the motor. Heat from moving parts is more easily transferred to the synthetic oil. Oil is a cooling lubricant.

[joedls]

Originally Posted by BRIAN

The battery was discharged less, now the alternator won't take as much hp from your motor to recharge. You see were I'm going with this. This in effect will make all these components last longer. Oh and since the alternator didn't work too hard that means better MPG

[Vettezuki]

Originally Posted by BRIAN

Yeah.......honey like. Thickening of the oil after shut down. Both oils run at about 10cst during opt temp. The next morning after shut down will be a different story. The mineral oil will thicken to say 75cst while a synthetic will only thicken to 50 cst (fictional numbers guys). Is that clear? Stuff can sometimes be the opposite of common thinking.

What's cst? How is this different than viscosity (measure of rate of flow as a function of thickness right?)

Simply because synthetic oil is a better "coolant" for the motor. Heat from moving parts is more easily transferred to the synthetic oil. Oil is a cooling lubricant.

Any idea what the differential of thermal conductivity and specific heat is synthetic vs. mineral? That would be useful objective information.

I'm not breaking your balls, just that if these things are true it's because of XYZ and would like to know what they are. I certainly understand the idea that synthetic oils hold together (resist breakdown) far better under higher temp and that alone is a big deal.

[BRIAN]

Originally Posted by joedls

Was wondering how long a post like this would come up. That's just one example of how far synthetic oil can reach out beneficially. Sounds stupid right, I'll try to find all the reports of other benefits.

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

What's cst? How is this different than viscosity (measure of rate of flow as a function of thickness right?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

Any idea what the differential of thermal conductivity and specific heat is synthetic vs. mineral? That would be useful objective information.

I don't sorry, at least not personally. I'll have to dig up test papers with stats and what not from engineers. These reports cost money to actually see, probably why the myths just won't go away. Who would pay to read someones science project haha.

Originally Posted by Vettezuki

I'm not breaking your balls

Your not, this happens most of the time. I've been told by previous professors to keep my mouth shut unless you want to beat a dead horse which I think is funny now.

I'll be changing the oil on my Lexus soon. Might get that oil analyzed and also get the new oil analyzed 1K miles into it to see which has more wear. Hopefully post my results in spring.

[BRUTAL64]

[big2bird]

Originally Posted by BRIAN

Alrighty, as you may or may not know oils come present with specially formulated additives for whatever application. In this case an auto transmission. Automotive manufactures know this and know that there transmissions require this grade of oil with these certain additives to fulfill there service intervals, whether they be 30K or 100K. If your transmission service is due every 30K in "normal driving conditions" then "flushing" your tranny at say half of that 15K, can actually cause more wear on the components, mainly clutches.


WHY???? How can changing my fluid much sooner possibly affect my trans even more??? ADDITIVES

Oil additives are activated by heat and pressure. Due to additives having to hold up over time take certain time periods to actually become active at protecting your transmission. They take time to bond to the wear metals.

Back to work, i'll answer your questions tonight Ben and add some more to this also.

Continued 6:01 PM : So to help make this clear. The first couple thousand miles on new oil is where about 90% (give or take) of wear occurs. As the miles rack up additives become more and more present doing what they are formulated to due, protect your transmission. This also goes for motors and diffs with some different exceptions of course. So now you can see why changing your oil too soon can lead to "accelerated wear." It's the repeated early service of the trans that puts the the oil in the "activation period" or "break in period" over and over again increasing wear. Failing to follow the guidelines of the manufacture.

Keep in mind about all this, these are pretty much today's current oils not late 80's or early 90's oils. Oils have come along way and new advancements have been made hence these absurd 100k service intervals and 10K motor oil services. At the end of the day though each shift is one less shift for the tranny regardless, it's still man made don't try to go 200K on the poor things.

Your right about one thing. I think your theory is a load of crap.
Can you point me to one case study that shows this is true, before I scan Ebay for the now highly desirable used tranny fluid?
Maybe I'll start manufacturing "pre-stressed" tranny fluid.

[big2bird]

Originally Posted by BRIAN

A motor with synthetic oil will have an easier time turning over, so that means your starter needs less power to get you going. The starter needs less power so now that's less power taken from the battery. The battery was discharged less, now the alternator won't take as much hp from your motor to recharge. You see were I'm going with this. This in effect will make all these components last longer. Oh and since the alternator didn't work too hard that means better MPG

This reeks of "Wallstreet Marketing" B.S.

[big2bird]

Originally Posted by BRIAN

Was wondering how long a post like this would come up. That's just one example of how far synthetic oil can reach out beneficially. Sounds stupid right, I'll try to find all the reports of other benefits.

You have to come up with something better than this. I have a hard time believing you actually posted it.
I believe a speck of flyshit on the hood would have more MPG impact.

[joedls]

Originally Posted by BRIAN

Was wondering how long a post like this would come up. That's just one example of how far synthetic oil can reach out beneficially. Sounds stupid right, I'll try to find all the reports of other benefits.

You actually believe that a battery, with a less than full charge, will cause more drag on an engine because the alternator is "working harder"? I'm not a very bright guy, so you'd have to explain this to me very simply, because I don't understand. As far as I know, the alternator is being driven by a belt that is being turned by the crank. This is always happening while the engine is turning, except for those alternators that have a clutch pulley. But the engagement of the clutch pulley has nothing to do with the output required of the alternator. And, as far as I know, the alternator doesn't have any internal parts that make it drag more or less, depending on required output.

So again, I'm not very bright, so please explain this to me.